How much is too much? *River*

I often like to emulate Anothersky's deeply symbolic and metaphorical narrative for River. But generally it ends up just coming across as a serious case of incomprehensible purple prose.

How do you all find balance?

Wow, this is a tough question. Because although River in the original series is often quite oblique and metaphorical, she also doesn't often carry the narrative: it's not so frequent that the scene is viewed only from her POV. Even Objects in Space, which focused quite a bit on River POV, played most of the scenes with a mix of River's and others' POV. And in many of the other episodes, her semi-comprehensible ramblings are used for comic effect or other non-plot-critical elements. And there's also her actions, which sometimes tell the story clearly even though her words do not. But when you're writing a story, and you can and do narrate something from River's POV, how do you go about making it true to her voice and yet comprehensible to the reader?
I don't have an answer. I've written some scenes from River's POV, and even when I think I've put things as clearly as I can without breaking out of a true-to-character voice for River, I still get mixed reactions from readers. Everything from, wow you really nailed River's voice here, to WTF???? So I dunno, maybe it just depends on the reader's skill at interpolating metaphorical speech and symbolism. A favorite device of mine is to give River an "interpreter"--Simon or Inara or Kaylee or Mal, most often. The "interpreter" is partly baffled (just like the reader), but because of his or her insight into River's character, is able to illuminate the key points and thus highlight them for the reader who is less skillful at understanding metaphor and symbol. So I have the interpreter character have a dialog with River, repeating some of her phrases, guessing at their meaning, asking her point blank if that little speech she just made really means xyz. But when it's a River monolog, it's anybody's guess as to how far to go.
I'll have to say, I've enjoyed most of your River monologs, and find that they move the plot forward and/or convey most of the information they are meant to convey. You generally handle symbolism quite well in your narrative. But (generally speaking) passages of heavy symbolism do not make for "light" reading -- and those who are just looking for a fun Firefly fic might encounter one of these River POV passages and just go "gah, it's too hard, skip it."

Hmm... Good points. Perhaps I'll read the short story Crystal again and reestablish a proper balance for River.

River has always been the hardest character for me. I have never felt a connection with her and as a result I don't have an intuitive feel for what she will say or do in a given situation. I can always tell when written River doesn't feel like real River, but I can't always make it right. I think maybe once or twice I have captured River close enough that I have been happy with the result, but most times I fail and as such tend to avoid writing her when I can.

There are a few things that I don't like when someone writes River, such as when they have her always refer to herself in the third person. River only did that ONCE, and it was because of the context that people were talking about her like she wasn't there.

That's the quickest way for me to determine that someone doesn't know how to write River, and at that point I can be reasonably sure that all the other characters will be written as flat stereotypes of themselves.

If a writer doesn't write a third person River, I usually give them a chance, but otherwise I drop the story pretty quickly. I tolerate that probably even less than I'd tolerate Inara as the horrible shrew witch, though it's a close race.

Chances are 2x2 that because you don't do either, you acquit yourself well.

Bytemite wrote:I often like to emulate Anothersky's deeply symbolic and metaphorical narrative for River. But generally it ends up just coming across as a serious case of incomprehensible purple prose.

How do you all find balance?

I'm not sure i ever succeeded - most likely i too fell into the purple pit.
But mostly just - i always want to see more episodes of Firefly than exist, so i just think, does this seem right, does the River in this fic flicker in my imagination the same as on the telly?
Downside i guess means going too far the other way, bland-ing the story, the prose; which is a failure to use the different medium, literary versus visual.

The funny thing is that readers' reactions to "Riverspeak" are highly variable. One reader will tell you it's brilliant, sounds just like River, you've captured her voice perfectly, etc., and another will tell you that your characterization of River is off, and doesn't ring true. I think that for River more than for other characters, people seem to have stronger personal views of the character, and more trouble accepting deviation from what is, essentially, their headcanon.
Or is it just me? Have you all found that to be the case?

ebfiddler987 wrote:The funny thing is that readers' reactions to "Riverspeak" are highly variable. One reader will tell you it's brilliant, sounds just like River, you've captured her voice perfectly, etc., and another will tell you that your characterization of River is off, and doesn't ring true. I think that for River more than for other characters, people seem to have stronger personal views of the character, and more trouble accepting deviation from what is, essentially, their headcanon.
Or is it just me? Have you all found that to be the case?

well, i always got called out most for Simon, characterisation-wise.
language... maybe River yeah, but Mal some too.
but that was especially true my being from the UK (see previous thread).

as for fan perceived ownership, Simon and Jayne i would say are the most vocal.

it's funny, River i identify with the closest but she is far from central in my fics; it works out mostly Mal and then the others fairly democratically after.

As in my scribbles generally i am most drawn to explore characters i don't relate to at all.

I probably identify most with Mal, Inara, River, and Kaylee. There's usually very easy for me to get into their voices (or at least what I see as their voices, as my Mal is a bit more poetic than most people write him), although lately, River has been becoming pretty hard to write, because maybe I'm overdoing the purple.

wytchcroft wrote:as for fan perceived ownership, Simon and Jayne i would say are the most vocal.

Yeah, Jayne's fans, especially, are very vocal.
As for Simon, I also get called out for mis-characterizing him. I think perhaps his fans really admire the character, and my view of him probably grates the wrong way. But my past experiences (which involve seeing the medical profession from the inside, not necessarily only the nice parts) cause me to avoid putting the character on a pedestal simply because he's a brilliant doctor. To me "brilliant doctor" does not equal "omniscient" or "capable of solving every medical problem known to humankind" or even necessarily "nice." I think some of Simon's fans see him that way (kind of like how Kaylee does in Serenity pilot), so if I ever show Simon as being anything other than noble-hearted and fixing everything, I hear from them.

wytchcroft wrote:generally i am most drawn to explore characters i don't relate to at all.

I can relate to that. And the inverse is kind of true. I relate to Zoe pretty well, and yet I don't often get inside her head and write from her POV.

Kaylee sure got a rude waking up too... Yeah, I know what you mean and I think I know who you mean too. Simon does need his own life, can't spend all his time looking after River. I do write him as a bit of an exemplary brother though even if he isn't there immediately he's usually the first to respond to anything up with River. I give Simon both excuses to show off, and also chances to be wrong.

Zoe's so quiet, hard to get into her head sometimes.

Bytemite wrote:Kaylee sure got a rude waking up too... Yeah, I know what you mean and I think I know who you mean too. Simon does need his own life, can't spend all his time looking after River. I do write him as a bit of an exemplary brother though even if he isn't there immediately he's usually the first to respond to anything up with River. I give Simon both excuses to show off, and also chances to be wrong.

well it's a great thing about fic, many fic-writers seem to have a fairly consistent characterisation for their main canon but are able to explore loads of what-ifs, maybes and personality facets in drabbles, rapid-fics and what-nots outside of that. You certainly do - and do it well!

One thing I'm a little uneasy with is if someone makes Simon evil and abusive towards River... Or if there's incest, which, considering River's vulnerability and dependence, seems kind of evil and abusive no matter how sympathetically it's written.

yeah... that's just too awful. a good writer can take me places i don't expect, wouldn't have intended etc. but, man, that's too much pain for me.

And scarily, they almost seem sincere about it.

River sure is a handful though. Sometimes it's fun to take River a place where Simon just can't handle it.

wytchcroft wrote:

Bytemite wrote:I often like to emulate Anothersky's deeply symbolic and metaphorical narrative for River. But generally it ends up just coming across as a serious case of incomprehensible purple prose.

How do you all find balance?

I'm not sure i ever succeeded - most likely i too fell into the purple pit.

I think the character I have a tendency to go all purple on is Inara!

I avoid all Tam sibling incest!

I think the character I have a tendency to go all purple on is Inara!

She kinda DOES that though. Ocean of light and other turns of phrase.

I go purple on all Mal and Inara and River in particular.

I avoid all Tam sibling incest!

It's effin' bizarre. And no, River initiating (as she often does in these stories) doesn't somehow make it BETTER. Actually, in that case you usually get into the disturbing territory of River forcing herself onto her brother in addition to the usual squicky undertones of crazy non-lucid River romance. And then Simon gives up resisting, and it doesn't make it okay! It DOESN'T!