Canon issues

What do you consider canon?

Me, I stick with the shows and the BDM. All else is speculation as far as I'm concerned. I tend to ignore the comics because I wasn't a huge fan of them. Except the Book one.

Shows, BDM. Better Days seemed pretty solid to me, canon-wise. It seemed like when Zach (?) started having more to do with the comics, they got less interesting and rang less true. And some of the other stuff that's come out in the last few years seems pretty skimpy. I'm thinking specifically of the documents referring to the Companion/Captain contract and other information from the Guild. The contract itself was pretty straightforward, but the other Guild stuff didn't really fit, IMO. A few lines about how Companions can satisfy the most discriminating tastes in the 'verse. And then, if memory serves, some kind of invitation to apply for classes at the local school if you're interested! What is this, truck driving school? The whole thing seemed thin. Insufficiently elegant and mysterious. Of course, I satisfied myself by saying it's all a front for what's really going on with the Guild. I prefer that to thinking Joss was too busy to devote a lot of time to making it interesting.

I haven't read the short stories that came out in the book last year or so.

I've only watched the series and the BDM - my only knowledge of the comics and the other scraps is what Byte tells me about really. I don't understand get what is the motivation behind producing them.

In my view, there's a hierarchy of canon. The shows are canon. The movie is canon except where it contradicts the show. The visual companions contain a lot of material in the form of interviews and quotes from Joss, other writers, directors, and actors, most of which I consider canon as well. After that, I pick and choose. I incorporate a few things from the Serenity novelization, a few things from the comics Better Days and Those Left Behind. The Shepherd's tale was fine but it hasn't entered into my fic especially because it came out after I had already outlined the role for Book in my fic. I never read Float Out but I have appropriated the idea that Zoe is carrying Wash's child into my fic. It's hard to regard the "lite" comics that have come out more recently as canon in any way. It's Never Easy in particular felt OOC. On the other hand, it's one of the few Firefly things I felt was appropriate to let my daughter read -- everything else has content too mature for a kid her age. Maybe the problem with the recent "lite" comics is that they're written with a young (and not particularly deep-thinking) audience in mind, whereas I am not satisfied by such. It has to be at least as thoughtful as my favorite fanfics, or I'd rather read the fanfics. Most of the Still Flying short stories were pretty good, and at least offered some food for thought. I also watch/read interviews with Joss, the writers, and the actors, and incorporate bits of what they say.

I agree about the visual companions. That seemed like a project Joss used to communicate a lot of ideas about the 'verse in a very thorough way. I've used ideas from that as canon.

I try to use everything, including the stuff like contradictions in the timeline. All of the events are relative to other events, so it's not actually as tricky as it seems, only a few things have exact dates and I can just say everything else is approximate.

Mostly I do this so I can use everything as equal fodder for fanfic fuel. I will continue to use anything published and sold in any official capacity as canon, even the contradictions, unless characterizations become unforgiveably OOC. I'm willing to explain away Simon announcing to the crew that Jayne has an STD. I'm less willing to accept that Simon goes on a murderous rampage from stress and kills off everyone on Serenity.

Bytemite wrote:
I'm less willing to accept that Simon goes on a murderous rampage from stress and kills off everyone on Serenity.

Whoa...where was that? That's a comic?

No, just an example. That would be just way too OOC for me to handle, there'd have to be like an entire season or series of comics showing the character change before I'd believe something like that. Generally ANY character being suddenly demonized and made into a villain would be pretty bad.

But there's other OOC things that don't involve killing everyone that would probably not be good, like River not being written like River and quirky anymore, or Jayne becoming nice, I've mentioned those two before, or Inara turning out to be completely manipulative and spiteful and a mole/spy, or tame jolly Mal with none of his inner conflict, or Mal gone off the other end into true Caleb style psychopath wrongness.

i tend to think everything is canon as and when required - if it prods a good debate or some character insight or a fic. Obviously OOC portrayals or descriptions (e.g. the Operative in the novelization) even in official merch are just that - but that tends to be my only concrete shutter. No established serial or series is free from continuity issues after all. With the movie though i do include the deleted scenes with Inara, same as with River (marrying) in the show - the cuts were pretty much just for time. I tend to try and scrunch both versions of the pilot together and i consider the River Tam sessions (Web episodes) canon coz Summer is so great in them and they are creepy.

Becky Mears wrote:I've only watched the series and the BDM - my only knowledge of the comics and the other scraps is what Byte tells me about really. I don't understand get what is the motivation behind producing them.

well the motivations change - Those Left Behind was published as a necessary bridge between firefly (the show) and serenity (the movie and then possible Universal second series) it is thought to have used a script outline and dialogue dating back to season one and features an important character re-appearance as well as establishing that H.O.G was something of a tonal signpost. And it's pretty good. It is referred to in the BDM novelization (based on Joss's early film-script draft and a bunch of firefly dvds) which, i believe, came out first! So yeah; canon. Also definite Joss input.

The rest of the comics get thinner and their canonicity (a word even?) is up for grabs like everything else. Quality kind've diminishes though.

the stories and info and interviews in the companions and guides are fun but it's fan-fic surely? Or canon if you want it to be. Which circles me back to the top.

I also use material from the deleted scenes as if it's canon. If something's "canonicity" (love that word, wytchcroft) is questionable, I just pick and choose and use what fits.

Do you all make use of material from the script for "Dead or Alive"? Just curious.

Yes.

Or more accurately: heck yes.

In the very least I've referenced it once or twice, like I think I had Inara mention that she had some triage experience after the crew was around for an explosion at one point in Eidolon. And River tosses out pieces of the fairy tale she tells the kids in that script with the freaky story she tells Inara while she's dreaming.

Bytemite wrote:Yes.

Or more accurately: heck yes.

In the very least I've referenced it once or twice, like I think I had Inara mention that she had some triage experience after the crew was around for an explosion at one point in Eidolon. And River tosses out pieces of the fairy tale she tells the kids in that script with the freaky story she tells Inara while she's dreaming.

This.

ok, the River character thread bumped my noggin but this is a canon/continuity/tv-comics-bdm question (phew!)

River - ok, we know the maidenhead and yadda yaddda ick, but Mr Universe talks about 'the signal popping up all over';
given Those Left Behind (River is more physical therein than firefly) do you think the first exposure to the 'subliminals' could have been sooner?
e.g. Aerial, or (more likely) The Message (postoffice station ads), this might explain River's simultaneous growth and deterioration.
hmm...
or even the influx of a new personality structure, with new memories etc (ala the remote wipe in Dollhouse).
we can consider River a multiple in at least as much as carrying other memories. If Miranda was a key word for some sort of super-soldier clearing operation (goodbye Miranda's Reavers - hello planet reclamation, goodbye potential scandal) a personality overwrite seems plausible and it may have needed more than one exposure to build the necessary architecture. ... maybe???

I've thought that it could be a remote wipe/ program thing. It probably would be the easy way to create that kind of conditioning in a person.

The movie presents it as simple conditioning, but this is the 25th century we're talking about, it could be something very high tech.

I think it's behavioral conditioning. My sister is a physician who happens to specialize in brains, and we've talked about what sort of conditioning River might have undergone to embed the "triggers" and the "safeword." (And for the record, she doesn't think "stripping the amygdala" would have the affect it's said to have in the show.) I also think River exhibits PTSD. I think that it's when Mal begins to recognize the PTSD, that he begins to find a way to relate to River.

ebfiddler987 wrote:I think it's behavioral conditioning. My sister is a physician who happens to specialize in brains, and we've talked about what sort of conditioning River might have undergone to embed the "triggers" and the "safeword." (And for the record, she doesn't think "stripping the amygdala" would have the affect it's said to have in the show.) I also think River exhibits PTSD. I think that it's when Mal begins to recognize the PTSD, that he begins to find a way to relate to River.

Hah, no, it probably wouldn't have. So they probably messed around with or augmented something else while they were in there as well.

I think Mal with his chronic hero syndrome was on River's side the moment she scrambled screaming and naked out of the box. He looked about ready to kill Simon, and wasn't quite yet willing to believe Simon even after he told his story.

His threats about kicking them off were probably more bluffing to get Simon to obey while he tried to figure out the situation and what to do. I don't think he would actually have kicked them off on some random world with nowhere to go and noplace to hide, because it would have bothered his conscience. But he definitely would have been willing to act like he would do that.

ebfiddler987 wrote:I think it's behavioral conditioning. ... I also think River exhibits PTSD. I think that it's when Mal begins to recognize the PTSD, that he begins to find a way to relate to River.

i found it interesting listening to a US military spokesperson saying that in their opinion Cognitive Behavioural Therapy did not work in treating PTSD and that they were actively seeking/inviting new approaches.

also; have a look at this; (which seems very applicable to River, especially point four dealing with 'the gifted individual')
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Disintegration

the neuroscience of Firefly is... a little creative.

Bytemite wrote:
I think Mal with his chronic hero syndrome was on River's side the moment she scrambled screaming and naked out of the box.

Oh i agree and see how he carries her after she's put to sleep in the BDM.

That said - i do think they both sense a connection of a mystifying and undefined sort.
Their reactions to and interactions with one another in the series are often actually quite strange. From River's "Not him", to Mal genuinely fretting over why he HASN'T thrown them off the boat, to the fact that they are actually very relaxed with each other and 'read' each other quite well..

wytchcroft wrote:see how he carries her after she's put to sleep in the BDM.

That said - i do think they both sense a connection of a mystifying and undefined sort.
Their reactions to and interactions with one another in the series are often actually quite strange. From River's "Not him", to Mal genuinely fretting over why he HASN'T thrown them off the boat, to the fact that they are actually very relaxed with each other and 'read' each other quite well..

That's why I love writing scenes for Mal and River (no not Mal/River ) -- the way they relate to one another is special, unlike any other pair (in the non-shipping sense) of characters on the boat. It's just an interesting character interaction -- I think both of them having experienced some truly devastating mental trauma, and recognizing it in the other one, gives them a common ground that no one else shares.

ebfiddler987 wrote:

wytchcroft wrote:see how he carries her after she's put to sleep in the BDM.

That said - i do think they both sense a connection of a mystifying and undefined sort.
Their reactions to and interactions with one another in the series are often actually quite strange. From River's "Not him", to Mal genuinely fretting over why he HASN'T thrown them off the boat, to the fact that they are actually very relaxed with each other and 'read' each other quite well..

That's why I love writing scenes for Mal and River (no not Mal/River ) -- the way they relate to one another is special, unlike any other pair (in the non-shipping sense) of characters on the boat. It's just an interesting character interaction -- I think both of them having experienced some truly devastating mental trauma, and recognizing it in the other one, gives them a common ground that no one else shares.

yes it's a beautiful thing; beyond easy definition and damn hard to do justice to in fic-scribbling! i never got why folks tend to squash their interactions into boxes labelled 'paternal' or 'sexual' or 'practical' or any kind of '-al'.

but i suppose it's easier to process that way and certainly must be easier to write!

I've had some great fun with Mal and River scenes. For some reason they often turn comic in my fic. I've got one for my upcoming story that maybe I'll post as a stand-alone.

ebfiddler987 wrote:I've had some great fun with Mal and River scenes. For some reason they often turn comic in my fic. I've got one for my upcoming story that maybe I'll post as a stand-alone.

post here? please do!

Workin' on it. Just checked it over and it needs a little brushing up before it's readable, so I'll do that, and post next time I get back to an internet access site. (The downside of this otherwise lovely rural vacation I'm on right now.)

wytchcroft wrote:

ebfiddler987 wrote:I think it's behavioral conditioning. ... I also think River exhibits PTSD. I think that it's when Mal begins to recognize the PTSD, that he begins to find a way to relate to River.

i found it interesting listening to a US military spokesperson saying that in their opinion Cognitive Behavioural Therapy did not work in treating PTSD and that they were actively seeking/inviting new approaches.

Currently their approach seems to be drug PSTD victims into an emotional coma until they commit suicide. (Sorry, politics and anger)

Yeah, there's got to be a better way to do this.

I think Mal, River and Zoe definitely have it. But I wonder if some of the other characters have hints of it too.