River's Academy: the why of it

What was the purpose of River’s academy? Why, exactly, were they recruiting bright teenagers with high scores in certain skill areas, and then subjecting these teenagers to (a) brain surgery; (b) martial arts training; (c) embedding of triggers and/or safewords.

What are your thoughts on the purpose of the “government-sponsored academy” and its program of “research” or “testing” or “training.”

Obviously, the purpose for the story was to give River character background and motivation, but I mean, besides that --
Why would some one or some entity set up an Academy like that? Who are they? Not a simple answer like "Blue Sun" or "the Alliance" -- more a question of, what kind of person, with what characteristics, would set up or participate in running the Academy or its programs? Are they simply evil sadistic bastards? Or are they well-meaning, misguided people? Or some complex mixture?

I figure it's there because Joss likes his obscure declassified CIA programs and teenage girls.

As for what they're doing... Heck, if it's anything like the CIA programs, they don't even know, it's basically abuse just for the laughs, while occasionally scrambling to get approval for another funding grant.

They actually probably lucked out with River. There was probably one big shot scientist there, probably Mathias, who had some cockmamie theory about enhancing or creating psychic ability through brain surgery, and he was basically doing trial and error until something happened to come up positive. These guys have absolutely no respect for the scientific method or for ethics, I doubt they have anything remotely resembling an objective.

Bytemite wrote:

Heck, if it's anything like the CIA programs, they don't even know, it's basically abuse just for the laughs, while occasionally scrambling to get approval for another funding grant.

They actually probably lucked out with River. There was probably one big shot scientist there, probably Mathias, who had some cockmamie theory about enhancing or creating psychic ability through brain surgery, and he was basically doing trial and error until something happened to come up positive. These guys have absolutely no respect for the scientific method or for ethics, I doubt they have anything remotely resembling an objective.

a lot of people have mentioned the phonic similarity of River and Reaver and seen some sort of unified process in their semi-accidental creation. was River exposed to Pax? etc But i don't see that come up so much as time ticks on from the BDM release.

i can buy what you're saying here and posit a loose amalgam of covert research projects funded one way or another by individuals, corporations and the Parliament; some of which may have been altruistic in motive and others the complete reverse. Mostly in ignorance of, and/or competition with one another.
The Academy is simply one case in point, one door into that underworld.

When the Independents and Alliance clashed then goalposts changed, resources & funding streams diverted, objectives got more immediate but rationales murkier still.

In the post BDM verse i can imagine equally:
1) a shiny super-school that is what it says it is (maybe akin to western analogues or something more like the Eastern Bloc's 'hedgehog' schooling), another that turns out to be a front or (more plausibly) has a shady bunch of new professors and an off-limits research area. And so forth.

2) crappy and resource starved military minded development sites languishing on moons around the rim and definitely lacking a clear objective (especially long-term).

3) dubious moneyed individuals or groups (e.g. blue sun) and freelancers.
does the verse have its Von Brauns and Brazil-type hideaways, seems likely.

4) the remnants of (and/or ongoing) left hand versus right hand departmental and corporate in-fighting endemic to structures such as the Alliance.

5) and on and on.

there's wiggle room too in the communication systems of the Verse. how fast do news, info, orders and directives travel???

questions i ponder are;
if there are others like River, if so then where are they and what background similarities might they share?
where else might human test subjects be culled or suckered from?

how much of a public hand-washing and housecleaning would be clamoured for post-Miranda, would that actually effect such diffuse projects as that which spawned River, and if so, which ones?

what else might come to light about the Alliance? (i had a clumsy but well intentioned, Katrina influenced reveal in one fic)

just how innocent are the Independents in all the above?

Bytemite wrote:I figure it's there because Joss likes his obscure declassified CIA programs and teenage girls.

well Tim wrote for the x-files and with Joss it's identification surely - and i'm not sure just how interested he is these days, more a question of which pitch will get the green light.

it's all a little subjective*, i mean... L Frank Baum wrote a large number of Oz books and the vast majority had a young female protagonist. But who were his readers? The woman who carried the Oz books on, after Baum's death, her volumes were even more numerous - and were all about boys. Is that significant?
i doubt it.

the character i most identify with in firefly is River, and i am neither a teenager nor female. so what?

*since i agree there are uncomfortable issues raised by dollhouse and buffy 8.

Dollhouse really got into some of those same programs though. Although then again, Dollhouse was a clearing house for Firefly ideas.

Bytemite wrote:Dollhouse really got into some of those same programs though. Although then again, Dollhouse was a clearing house for Firefly ideas.

and my take (so far) on the Academy/Alliance issue is most likely slanted according to my work experiences in eduction etc.
that's why i like reading things by other people - i get bored of my own views! creativity need a little friction.
and pirates, i'm thinking there could be pirates.

my fics are pretty much Mal-centred though.

Bytemite wrote:if it's anything like the CIA programs, they don't even know

Ha! yes.

There was probably one big shot scientist there, probably Mathias, who had some cockmamie theory about enhancing or creating psychic ability through brain surgery, and he was basically doing trial and error until something happened to come up positive. These guys have absolutely no respect for the scientific method or for ethics

Yes. Absolutely crappy research plan from the scientific point of view. And Miranda...what kind of human use review oversight committee approved that stupid experiment? Obviously *none*, because the first question any responsible human subject review panel would ask is: "what evidence do you have that the treatment you're proposing is not harmful?"

wytchcroft wrote:a lot of people have mentioned the phonic similarity of River and Reaver and seen some sort of unified process in their semi-accidental creation.

I feel this connection kind of got dropped by the wayside...it could have been explored much further.

i can buy what you're saying here and posit a loose amalgam of covert research projects funded one way or another by individuals, corporations and the Parliament; some of which may have been altruistic in motive and others the complete reverse. Mostly in ignorance of, and/or competition with one another.

Yes. I think alot of bad things can be done by people acting in good faith. I also figure there were a lot of disparate parts not aware of the work each other was doing, and so decisions about whether or not to continue certain lines of research, were made with incomplete information about adverse effects, either because said adverse results were classified, not made available to the scientists, or repressed for purposes of political and/or profitability expedience.

When the Independents and Alliance clashed then goalposts changed, resources & funding streams diverted, objectives got more immediate but rationales murkier still.

Mission creep.

3) dubious moneyed individuals or groups (e.g. blue sun) and freelancers.
does the verse have its Von Brauns and Brazil-type hideaways, seems likely.

In my headcanon, Blue Sun has deep pockets and enough politicians on the take to get its way most of the time. They don't have to abide by government restrictions on use of human subjects and participate in oversight because they have the resources to do their own thing. In addition...

4) the remnants of (and/or ongoing) left hand versus right hand departmental and corporate in-fighting endemic to structures such as the Alliance.

Blue Sun is a mega-corporation, so large that managing it all is well-nigh impossible. Lots of things go on within Blue Sun that other parts of the corporation are unaware of. Like cockamamie research projects of dubious scientific merit and less ethics, being allowed to go forward, and continue unchecked, for years.

there's wiggle room too in the communication systems of the Verse. how fast do news, info, orders and directives travel???

Particularly with the added complication of large size. Does the Alliance even know what kind of things the Blue Hands (presumeably Blue Sun's private operatives) are really up to? Do the Blue Hands or Blue Sun know what kinds of things the Parliamentary Operatives are up to? Perhaps some Select Secret Subcommittee of Parliament is aware of what the Operatives are up to, but they're all on the take with Blue Sun, and so connive to keep well-meaning Parliamentarians in ignorance.

As you see, I seem to be in a conspiracy mood tonight.

what else might come to light about the Alliance?...just how innocent are the Independents in all the above?

Very good questions!

ebfiddler987 wrote:
As you see, I seem to be in a conspiracy mood tonight

should i call you 'Mr Universe'???
careful though - lotta hidden pitfalls trying to sort the signal from the noise...

I feel this connection kind of got dropped by the wayside...it could have been explored much further.

Dopamine is likely the big factor in behavioural changes associated with both damage to the amygdala and the hyperarousal state seen in the Reavers. River appears to process all that differently though, so there's probably further changes to her as well.

I think alot of bad things can be done by people acting in good faith. I also figure there were a lot of disparate parts not aware of the work each other was doing, and so decisions about whether or not to continue certain lines of research, were made with incomplete information about adverse effects, either because said adverse results were classified, not made available to the scientists, or repressed for purposes of political and/or profitability expedience.

Yeah. One hand not talking to the other or competing rival sabotage makes for a gigantic mess. On the other hand, people who believe they are righteous and infallible also tend to make staggeringly incompetent decisions to further their goals, and that's if they're not being fed bad ideas by people with a malicious agenda who they trust for no good reason.

Blue Sun has deep pockets and enough politicians on the take to get its way most of the time. They don't have to abide by government restrictions on use of human subjects and participate in oversight because they have the resources to do their own thing.

Also yes, hidden under their latest efforts at a nutritional fruity oaty cereal bar.

Lots of things go on within Blue Sun that other parts of the corporation are unaware of. Like cockamamie research projects of dubious scientific merit and less ethics

Well, that, but also there's government funded research and government team contracted out to them simply because Blue Sun has the appropriate facilities. The team who worked on River appear to be largely government scientists, but due to River finding out their secrets, now both Blue Sun and the government have a vested interest in capturing River or silencing her. And then the government is gullible enough to hire a Blue Sun retrieval team.

Way to go villains.

Bytemite wrote:

I feel this connection kind of got dropped by the wayside...it could have been explored much further.

Dopamine is likely the big factor in behavioural changes associated with both damage to the amygdala and the hyperarousal state seen in the Reavers. River appears to process all that differently though, so there's probably further changes to her as well.

yeah high levels of Dopamine have been shown to lead to increased suggestibility which might be a connection between the Pax on Miranda and the notion that River could be 'controlled/programmed' in some way (plus handwaving)...
but Dopa flooding also means a notable rise in pattern misrecognition (aka apophenia) which could explain a lot.

certainly i can imagine some sort of future cocktail (sp'ocktail?) of cognitive enhancement drugs and surgery effecting receptor sensitivity to dopamine and noradrenalin. etc. but it's Firefly so i'm happy to go with the handwaving as much as possible. (ie what aint too glaring)

and now i have to use the line "Wake up and smell the Serotonin!" somewhere...

I read that high levels also increase aggression and libido.

River might be really LOW dopamine.

Bytemite wrote:I read that high levels also increase aggression and libido.

River might be really LOW dopamine.

well, technically, if dopamine falls below 85% you have Parkinson's and i'm not sure that fits River. Still, it's a complex mechanism.
For real agressive/psychotic symptoms you would be more likely to have receptor flooding of noradrenalin or acetylcholine which is found in amphetamine psychosis. hyper-sensitivity to dopamine is a possible element in Tourette syndrome, but i'd uncomfortable labelling River that way.
But all in all, if the scientists were drugging her receptors and surgically messing with the mid-brain then... some sort of wacky would definitely ensue.

That's one result of low dopamine, but the symptoms depend on where in the brain the low dopamine problem is localized. Generally speaking, the reptile brain is a major hog of dopamine because it relates to basic survival decisions, even to the degree of stealing dopamine from the motor complex - which causes shakes as in Parkinsons.

But there's also kind of some inherent dopamine that bonds to nerve cells and suppresses certain nerve responses, like to pain or causes of stress, anxiety, fear. So dopamine levels in the reptile brain and emotional regulation complex can cause anxiety disorders, paranoia, and even psychotic/schizophrenic behaviours and hallucinations. Too much dopamine can also result in a skewed view of reality.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5754444_schizophrenia-low-levels-dopamine.html

" Parkinson's disease, an age-related degenerative condition causing tremor and motor impairment, is caused by loss of dopamine-secreting neurons in the substantia nigra. Schizophrenia has been shown to involve elevated levels of dopamine activity in the mesolimbic pathway and decreased levels of dopamine in the prefrontal cortex."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine

wow wiki must be seriously improving! i need to brush up my rusty knowledge some
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine_hypothesis_of_schizophrenia
it's a bit of controversy. really? l'il bit.

I wouldn't say "controversial" so much as there's question whether dopamine is the ONLY thing at work. I've explored a combination of dopamine and glutamate in my fics. They're very interrelated.

Bytemite wrote:I wouldn't say "controversial" so much as there's question whether dopamine is the ONLY thing at work. I've explored a combination of dopamine and glutamate in my fics. They're very interrelated.

oh i didn't mean in any big way, just; it does always seems to be that any good question leads to, not an answer, but another question.
and how is any research junkie ever gonna get clean? ha.

and of course theories as to the operation of neuro and/or nerve/autonomic systems will always be evolving.

dopamine (in combination) crops up in my fics too i must admit.

btw; i am really liking the Inara/Kaylee scenes in your latest chapters; the compare and contrast is real fascinating and just - damn, i never explored their dynamics much at all, so well fleshed out.

Just you wait, all of the mixed feelings Kaylee has relative to her background versus people who are more wealthy and from the core are going to be the basis for a big misunderstanding that cranks up crew tensions.

River, meanwhile, could not care less about any of it, though she does a good job reading from Kaylee but making it sound like Mal in context.

Bytemite wrote:Just you wait, all of the mixed feelings Kaylee has relative to her background versus people who are more wealthy and from the core are going to be the basis for a big misunderstanding that cranks up crew tensions.

eep!

Since I've already spoiled it in Eidolon, I can say that I also think that River's abilities may be partially electronic in nature. The mind relies on electrical charges and ionic channels, nerves communicate with electrical signals, which create memories and feelings and reactions, and depending on quantum mechanics, impressions of future connections and actions, or at least knowledge of what someone is going to do before they know.

But, I mean, there's something in the verse called a CORTEX that's basically like the internet, charged electrical signals. Why can't human electrical signals get picked up and transmitted and received?

Bytemite wrote:Since I've already spoiled it in Eidolon, I can say that I also think that River's abilities may be partially electronic in nature.

Robot!

no, ok, sorry -

The mind relies on electrical charges and ionic channels, nerves communicate with electrical signals, which create memories and feelings and reactions,

oh absolutely; and even simple meds are actually messing with the brain's electrical messaging and filing systems; confusion of which can cause OOC reactions and emotions as well as negative memory shunting. (And with River, the memories may not even be her own)

and depending on quantum mechanics, impressions of future connections and actions, or at least knowledge of what someone is going to do before they know.

Time slippage is equated (crudely) by a lot of Authorities as symptomatic of Borderline Personalty Disorder and other conditions. e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8016280

The time slip phenomenon was seen in autistic patients who had high intellectual ability but were unstable and maladjusted emotionally.

I pretty much loathe labels and subjective crudity (all the language in that quote could be taken apart for instance), but I do think the phenomena itself is extremely interesting and needs much more research. The sort of slippage described above is linear compared to say, BPD, e.g. as in Girl Interrupted* which is more associational and multi-directional (Deep Space 9!) and more akin to River. (Also more fictional maybe.)

and here is a counter argument i just stumbled on:
http://neuroskeptic.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/slipping-through-time-in-autism.html

*i cite as easy to find example is all, the quantum theorising is in the book, not the film though the phenomena is. oddly.

But, I mean, there's something in the verse called a CORTEX that's basically like the internet, charged electrical signals. Why can't human electrical signals get picked up and transmitted and received?

From neural net to internet from brainpan to cortex? i can get to that.
The notion of human electrical signals being receivable leads to EVP and so far... no prize and back to apophenia.
But that external electrical signals can effect (even overwhelm) the brain is absolutely certain - so... yeah, anything goes and you make a plausible case.

Where's Topher when i need him? Oh - wait - irony; if River has Bennett Halverston uploaded in her somewhere, then she already has the info on remote wiping!

i'll be in my lab.
gotta get cooking with these quantum-nootropics already.

ps; while i'm name checking books; here's a source for Saffron i come back to quite a lot;
http://www.amazon.com/Lying-Metaphorical-Memoir-Lauren-Slater/dp/0375501126
and it makes a nice correlative to Kaysen since mendacity is the other half of veracity's sky.

If Joss Whedon didn't want me coming up with crazy theories about River's powers working through the verse's version of the internet, he really shouldn't have called it the cortex. That's just ASKING for someone to make a connection between human mind and machine mind.

But, I'm not sure about this time slippage thing. Not familiar with it. I was more talking about how in quantum mechanics, atomic and subatomic particles have some strange properties that actually mess with time and causality. You know about the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, but apparently measuring a particle not only messes up our sense of it's position relative to velocity, but also RETROACTIVELY messes up it's behaviour in time. Future observations actually impact past and present measurements. So what happens to us in the future leaves an impression or echo on our neuron ions as those ions move to become those future versions.

Although actually I think River's precognitive powers are probably simpler than that, and are purely logic based. It is very easy to predict or even see - vividly - future events, provided you have a good visual imagination, pattern recognition skills, and logic. But I'm not ruling anything out either.

Time Slip Phenomenon: Interesting. I have a terrible memory in general, but there are many times I'll have a sudden recollection or memory that will strike me from the fog, clear and immediate, including memories as a two year old. They are not inherently traumatic from a logical sense, but the experience itself induces a sense of anxiety and often proceeds into a panic attack.

Bytemite wrote:measuring a particle not only messes up our sense of it's position relative to velocity, but also RETROACTIVELY messes up it's behaviour in time. Future observations actually impact past and present measurements. So what happens to us in the future leaves an impression or echo on our neuron ions as those ions move to become those future versions.

and thereby hops the bunny for the big non-firefly fic i've promised myself to get round to.
eventually.

maybe.

possibly.

LOL.

Excellent. Perhaps if you outline it really quick it will stay in your mind so you can get around to it?

Bytemite wrote:Excellent. Perhaps if you outline it really quick it will stay in your mind so you can get around to it?

oh i have outlines a-go-go. but it's the writing...
koff! anyway, back now to the topic...