Saffron. We loved her before she was Joan.

Irredeemable? Evil to the core? What is this devil woman's story?

Sooo irredeemable, but that's part of what makes her a good villain.

I think she might have some sympathetic backstory that explains why she was the way she is, but I also think that doesn't really change WHAT she is. I don't really see her turning good, but at the same time, I kind of see her getting away with what she does wrong at the end, and the nicest thing she might do for the crew is to leave them alone.

Saffron is wholly unwilling to have a cooperative partnership with any other human (possibly living) being. She must have control at all times, just like any tyrant. She gets her giggles and her self-worth out of manipulating people...not sometimes, not most of the time, not even when death is on the line...but ALL the time. She seems to have zero remorse about the emotional or property damage she causes...it just makes her more "awesome" because she can't get sucked in.

I'd say her backstory is a very sad one, since it created a narcissist bordering on psychopathy.

Bytemite wrote:Sooo irredeemable,

In the Jossverse? Aint no such thing; e.g. Faith, Anya, Andrew et al.

I think she might have some sympathetic backstory that explains why she was the way she is, but I also think that doesn't really change WHAT she is. I don't really see her turning good...

LOL! Spike much?
Yo/Saff; "The minute i get this chip out of my head i'll kiss the lot of ya!"

Her fan popularity brings inevitable recurrence - but used sparingly unless some character arc is gone through because, let's face it, only so many times her twists will retain their novelty. But, good actor, good writers; oh we would've seen some fun i'm sure.

anothersky wrote:Saffron is wholly unwilling to have a cooperative partnership with any other human (possibly living) being.

i should say that depends on the length of the job, and her youth. Faith is a loner at first, for example.

She must have control at all times, just like any tyrant.

She needs control, clearly, needs it, control = security. But a Tyrant? No, she is not the leader type and a throne would bore her to tears. She has her play in Trash, her targets; two men and a gun. The team she leaves to do the work in the way they say they will. No micromanaging.

She gets her giggles and her self-worth out of manipulating people...not sometimes, not most of the time, not even when death is on the line...but ALL the time. She seems to have zero remorse...

key word is seems. what we see is all we know. and i'm not she knows any more than us. her mind is a hall of funhouse mirrors.

I'd say her backstory is a very sad one, since it created a narcissist bordering on psychopathy.

well, it doesn't always take a sob story to make one of those, maybe just Sihnon and The Guild, lot of pressure in that beauty pageant; and a lack of empathy may signal giftedness (which, i would argue, she is - which puts her on the boat), though it also negates her training, i.e. her ability to 'read people' is not as good as Inara's or Nandi's (and it is Nandi she most resembles).

one odd thing; three women get punched in the face by men in uncomfortable (well it makes me uncomfortable anyway) scenes in Joss shows: Illyria by Hamilton, Echo by Ballard, Yo/Saff by Mal. Any link d'you think??

Lack of empathy has never really been a detriment for a psychopath to manipulate people.

And Saffron is almost guaranteed a psychopath, as well as a pathological liar. Sometimes she gets close to the truth, but her reality is very flexible. She can truly be close to tears one moment, then convince herself it was all an act the next. She really does think life is a game and that everyone just plays each other and that pretending other people care about you is asking for a backstabbing. Very warped, very twisted. Likes to keep people off balance with what she does, uses her femme fatale ways to create attraction then use it and discard.

But, she's actually a more balanced and realistic take on psychopaths than you usually see. She has emotions of her own, she can be sad or regretful and wonder why it seems she's missing something other people seem to have, she's not just for the evils but she has motivations (which are all selfish).

She'll never be GOOD, but oftentimes psychopaths will have kind of a code. Her kind, if you try to do them a good turn, they'll just laugh at you and call you a rube and never return the favour. But if you know their code, the things they do that they think everyone does and the things that they tell themselves even they won't do that makes them a good person/awesome and justifies what they do to other people, you can play on their code and get them to actually cooperate constructively. If a psychopath's weak spot is seeing kids being abused, you can let them lose and they'll tear into the abusers. If a psychopath tells themselves that they're more honest than everyone else, you can use exact words and promises they made to make them go along with your plans.

So in order for Saffron to become cooperative, they have to find her code and her weakness. The reason Buffy's group got a handle on Faith is because they figured out hers (though from my understanding Faith still goes off the rails quite a lot).

I didn't mind Mal punching Saffron, because I'm kind of a brawler myself and I think chivalry is pretty hypocritical.

But the Echo/Ballard one was messed up. I absolutely hate and detest that pairing. I LOATHE it. The whole time I was expecting Joss to follow through on how he pointed out the parallels between the dolls' clients and Ballard's fantasies about being her protector yet taking advantage of her in a vulnerable state, and even though that's a major underlying issue with the pairing that IMO makes it unworkable, he went through with it anyway.

Major badness. Like if Mal was into River and was a creepy stalker type. :/

I was almost glad what happened in the last episode, because then I thought maybe the fixation would resolve itself and Echo could move on, but then NOOO, apparently creepy stalker true love conquers all.

Heck I thought ALPHA was a better match for Echo than Ballard. ALPHA. The crazy serial killer doll.

Okay, so while I like Jayne and Saffron because I think they have a really similar worldview, Mal and Saffron are PROBABLY more what we would see. But, what about Inara and Saffron?

Bytemite wrote:
...the Echo/Ballard one was messed up.

agreed!

The whole time I was expecting Joss to... etc on how he pointed out the parallels between the dolls' clients and Ballard's fantasies about being her protector yet taking advantage of her in a vulnerable state, and even though that's a major underlying issue with the pairing that IMO makes it unworkable, he went through with it anyway.

maybe he was making a point about fans and shipage??

Major badness. Like if Mal was into River and was a creepy stalker type. :/

or - eep! maybe he genuinely ships mal and river.

creepy stalker true love conquers all.

it's heartwarming aint it.
but, considering Buffy (as is) - i suspect there was a point got muddied in the realisation.

Heck I thought ALPHA was a better match for Echo than Ballard. ALPHA. The crazy serial killer doll.

i think the idea was Alpha for Echo and Paul for Caroline but then Caroline got called 'bad' and anyway Paul was a - oh i need a treatment.

maybe he was making a point about fans and shipage??

I think if he was going to do that he would have had a character opposed to Echo/Ballard that pointed out these problems to the couple and they just went Nyah nyah. I think Joss was actually serious with that one. ._.

or - eep! maybe he genuinely ships mal and river.

Right after dollhouse ended I sent a few panicked emails to some people about that possibility. It is as horrifying a thought as it ever was.

i think the idea was Alpha for Echo and Paul for Caroline but then Caroline got called 'bad' and anyway Paul was a - oh i need a treatment.

I guess to be fair, Alpha still wasn't that great because he was also a crazy stalker type, and because he wanted to push her into a composite event so she could become like him. So actually I guess Alpha and Ballard are equally bad for Echo, as Ballard also stalks and then is complicit in the whole mind rape thing.

Why on earth are there so many mind rape stalker options that we're having to choose between them?

Bytemite wrote:

Why on earth are there so many mind rape stalker options that we're having to choose between them?

*shudders* Yeah... it does crop up in the Jossverse.
At least in firefly there's the crew of Serenity to balance it out, for all their issues. The dollhouse was a lot less comfortable and certainly more unbalanced.

Actually maybe it's less like pairing River with Mal, although Ballard stole some of Mal's personality. It's more like River being shipped with the hands of Blue. : (

I view Saffron as a sociopath. Let's see...Antisocial Personality Disorder:

"Callous unconcern for the feelings of others." -- check
"Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations." -- check
"Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them." -- check plus. How many husbands did she have?
"Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence." -- check. No problem pulling a gun on...well just about anybody.
"Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment." -- I doubt the authorities who dug her out of the dumpster at the end of Trash were able to reform her in any way.
"Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society." -- check. Like when she says, "You just had a better hand of cards."

Yep. I think she qualifies.

I don't think Saffron would change. She doesn't want to change. Part of her problem is that she doesn't see herself as having a problem.

In terms of story, since Saffron is unlikely to change, the trick is to vary the circumstances in which she (predictably) proceeds to screw over the crew and Mal in particular as fast and as fully as she is able. Personally, I am particularly fond of crates full of live chickens as a vehicle for catalyzing Saffron/crew antics.

ebfiddler987 wrote:I view Saffron as a sociopath.

So... a bright and shiny future in politics awaits her?

Incapacity to experience guilt

Well, she does seem to feel guilt towards having to play Haymer, or at least regret (because her life sucks so bad that she has to turn to harder capers that require teamwork with some rubes shockhorror).

But, sometimes I think that the diagnoses for psychopathy really miss out on the subtler cues. I think a psychopath probably CAN feel guilt, regret, pity, and remorse, even recognize that their life is pretty terrible and they're missing something other people seem to have, but despite that they continue on thinking that they have to manipulate everyone before someone gets them. They have twisted attitudes and scorn towards normal relationships and what they would think of as "pretty lies" about love and friendship.

So perhaps not always a complete lack of empathy, just not enough empathy or sustained empathy for it to change how they act. Which is to say they're always self-centered and self-appraising and make all kinds of justifications and moral twisting for why they do what they do and why someone deserved what they did to them.

Picture Durren Haymer confronting Saffron after police response brings her back:

Saffron: <tries to seduce like crazy to save herself>
Haymer <Genuinely disappointed> "But Yolanda, I loved you."
Saffron: <can't help breaking character and rolls her eyes> "Ugh, Durren, you are so dull! You should thank me for making your life more interesting!"
Haymer: "You kicked me in the head."
Saffron: <innocent eyelash flutter> "I did offer to kiss the bruise better." <He's not going for it. She pouts> "You're so ungrateful."

Bytemite wrote:
Well, she does seem to feel guilt towards having to play Haymer, or at least regret (because her life sucks so bad that she has to turn to harder capers that require teamwork with some rubes shockhorror).

I don't think Saffron really feels guilt about playing Haymer. I think it's regret. And it's mostly self-pitying regret ("why oh why have I come to such a pass, that I have to cooperate with these rubes to get it done?")

With people like this, it's never them, never their fault, it's always something someone else has done to them, that causes the problems, in their view. They can sometimes persist in this view, even if the entire world tells them they are wrong. They will still believe that it's the World that's wrong, not them.

Fictionally speaking, Saffron reminds me of Cathy in East of Eden.

That's accurate. It is a self-centered view of the world. But... I do still think they can feel pity - usually expressed as some kind of contempt, but still pity. And regret - people probably tell them all the time that their life doesn't have to be that way, and they might even envy or want what they describe as a normal life. But they're also likely to think that it sounds boring and people who think they're in love are delusional.

i always saw her as Brigid O'Shaughnessy (aka Ruth Wonderly etc) from The Maltese Falcon.

ebfiddler987 wrote:

Fictionally speaking, Saffron reminds me of Cathy in East of Eden.

Excellent comparison!

I think the only regret Saffron may feel toward Durren is that she's burned a bridge. The guy may have been useful in the future. Plus he loved her and it's always nice to have another sap that loves you and will do things (and give you things) for you. He was like an ace in the hole. If she needed someone when times were bad, she could just magically show up with her sob story and he would help her. I don't think she was mourning love lost or missed opportunity for true happiness.

Well, yeah, probably all of those. But I also think there's times sometimes, on a level that a psychopath doesn't really understand or know about, that they start to wonder why their life is such a mess. They don't want it to be a mess. But they always fall into the same old habits that screw everything up, and they tend to scorn advice that would actually improve it as naive or stupid.

Saffron does have that moment in Trash where she lets some doubts show. It doesn't last, and she very quickly revives and plays Mal again (more tears, almost indistinguishable from the honest ones, and she grabs his gun). So a very little time, I suppose, where she reflects seriously, about herself and her situation. But I don't think she seriously considers changing herself, as a remedy to her problems.

But this is different, I think, from a person who is messed up, and is well aware that they're messed up. Mal, for instance. It's because he's aware that he's screwed up, that there's hope for him. He might actually be able to do something about his problems. (In character terms, realistic potential for growth and change. For Saffron, not so much.)

Yeah, Saffron will always be a terror. Plus, asking ourselves honestly, do we really want her to change? It takes away such great story potential, like if Jayne were to change to be sensitive and caring. It doesn't work for some characters.

Given the use I have made of the character of Saffron in my fic, I have to admit that I do not want her to gain self-awareness and enlightenment and change her priorities and all that. I want her to be awful! Because that is just so much fun!

ebfiddler987 wrote:Given the use I have made of the character of Saffron in my fic, I have to admit that I do not want her to gain self-awareness and enlightenment and change her priorities and all that. I want her to be awful! Because that is just so much fun!

Speaking as a reader of said fic; i agree!

ebfiddler987 wrote:Given the use I have made of the character of Saffron in my fic, I have to admit that I do not want her to gain self-awareness and enlightenment and change her priorities and all that. I want her to be awful! Because that is just so much fun!

Oh graviness, she IS horrible. I mean some people somehow manage to get charmed by her on Firefly and I don't understand it. Ostensibly intelligent people who tell me that they think SAFFRON is more trustworthy than INARA.

What. What in. I don't. Error. COMPUTATION ERROR.

I think it's these same people who prefer Jayne to Mal. Don't seem to realize that just because they're entertained by a show, in real life there would be a whole lot of complications and frustration (and near death) that would be involved having to deal with a Saffron or a Jayne.

And then when they try to write the characters and show what they like about them, they completely fail to capture the flawed aspects of the characters so they end up pretty much exactly like the foils they were meant to be compared to, only the foils have to be turned into horrible people to make the bad characters look good.

Jayne with sensitivity is MAL, and Mal with no sensitivity being a lecherous exploitative hundan is Jayne. Superficial materialistic Inara trying to manipulate and kill the whole crew is Saffron.

There is absolutely no reason to switch the character personalities or roles around, because the character with the personality you want already exists.

Bytemite wrote:Jayne with sensitivity is MAL, and Mal with no sensitivity being a lecherous exploitative hundan is Jayne. Superficial materialistic Inara trying to manipulate and kill the whole crew is Saffron.

I have a plot bunny hopping around in my head, where for some reason Jayne is left in charge of Serenity, and we get to see what happens when someone who doesn't have the sense of responsibility that Mal has, is left driving the boat.