Saints go marching in

I've edited this and pasted this from PMs with Trish and Wytch, because 'it's worth it' (those no emoticon of someone swishing their hair smugly. Annoying. Also, there's no 'annoyed' emoticon! What kind of site IS this??)

Wytch:
Mal's not an ideological type of fella; he's a creature of instinct/feeling really, what's right is also what's natural. Mal embacing religion. Interesting but tricky... he certainly never says as much to Book - and the Operative in BDM has Faith whilst Mal has none. It could be argued that Mal's epiphany comes through River
(and Simon), the belief that "Love is what keeps her in the air" is a naked admission from him - and may be the reason that Joss extends the story forwards.

Moi:
I see Mal as kind of trying to bundle all his new-found lack of utter torment into a Book-shaped solution - if it worked for Book, it could work for him. I see religion as having been a big part of his adolescence and the familiarity of it being something else that draws him. But I agree that he wouldn't actually get there, as Book did.

Wytch:
gah! i smell plot bunny! Serenity gets a cargo to transport gold and lead and such precious metals. Turns out to be relics and such from war damaged and/or abandoned church(es). Book furious, Mal being all "Aint needed now
Shepherd", Zoe thinking, 'well - it pays our way and we're a good cause', Inara being pretty sick about it etc. and the inevitable gradual shifting of views. Have to be from churches, mind, (pioneer style?) not from Abbeys
or it's still claimable property - meantime Serenity would get double crossed over payment, dodge Alliance tax police and an avenging evangelical relic hunter before final resolution.

earlier dialogue might go like this;
Mal: "It's a big Universe Shepherd, and the whole house of it filled with God you say? I don't see him being overly minded. Aint like to frett much over the family silver." A look. "OK, maybe a little bit. But think of it like this; it helps, helps us. And we're good folk here Preacher, a good cause. We're a good cause aint we Zoe?"
Zoe (deadpans): "Yes Captain, we're a good cause."
Inara: fluent Chinese swearing.
River: (laughing) Like to wear their red on the outside, wolves dressed up in the blood of the lamb. Huff n puff and -
Mal: (cuts in) OK, If we want the scary view. It aint but rusty silver and such now.
Wash: (to Zoe) And since when...? Does Silver even rust?

Trish:
I like it - of course they'd get double crossed and draw all kinds of trouble because of it. I see River finding and poring over an old book of saints - the Church canonized people for the oddest reasons back in the day, and
attributed very peculiar abilities to them. And some were so spectacularly nuts, I think River would find it quite satisfying to compare herself to them.

Trish:
St. Amelia of Luxembourg had her arm broken by the young Charlemagne (he was driven to distraction by her beauty) but it was "almost instantly" miraculously healed. She also rode across a gigantic body of water on the back of a large fish. So she is the patron saint of fishermen and also people with arm problems.

Wytch:
Clearly, sainthood makes you do the whacky!

Trish:
Imagine River reading about the astonishing Christina, being amused and delighted and able to say (very rare occasion) "This one's far crazier than I ever was."

She'd also feel a kinship with Christina since they were both in deathlike states.

Then pondering the science behind it all - being able to smell sin, the miraculously healed arm, and above all, the levitation. River is a little bitter that Christina got to levitate upon awakening, whereas she only got to vomit.

She will spend some free time in the cargo bay attempting to levitate.

Levitating River is excellent. I imagine her eventually giving up on actually doing it and settling for just freaking out Jayne. Imagine Adam and the great reaction he'd have to River floating by while he's lifting weights.

Moi:
I see Mal as kind of trying to bundle all his new-found lack of utter torment into a Book-shaped solution - if it worked for Book, it could work for him.

I also see something like this happening. Mal trying to fulfill Book's last words but never quite achieving it. Or maybe he does, but, I think Miranda was only the start of regaining his faith, Mal wasn't there yet.

Becky, i want to hear more on this; how and where you will nudging our captain. i wanna compare notes on that...

I will, but have sadly spent the evening looking for very large voluminous trousers suitable for a visit to Ephesus on the internet. With some luck, I'm happy to add. A bientot.

Bytemite wrote:Levitating River is excellent. I imagine her eventually giving up on actually doing it and settling for just freaking out Jayne. Imagine Adam and the great reaction he'd have to River floating by while he's lifting weights.

Moi:
I see Mal as kind of trying to bundle all his new-found lack of utter torment into a Book-shaped solution - if it worked for Book, it could work for him.

I also see something like this happening. Mal trying to fulfill Book's last words but never quite achieving it. Or maybe he does, but, I think Miranda was only the start of regaining his faith, Mal wasn't there yet.

And by this, I meant using some kind of wire system.

wytchcroft wrote:Becky, i want to hear more on this; how and where you will nudging our captain. i wanna compare notes on that...

I can't help it, I have to refer to Tolstoy and Antal Szerb AGAIN. Pierre's failure to find ultimate meaning and enlightenment, and the fact that he is sort of all right with it at the end, because he has to be - because we all have to be - is one of the things that makes me love War and Peace. He goes through some bad shit too, including Borodino (= non sci-fi Serenity Valley), which can't have been a bundle of laughs. And the burning of Moscow (= non sci-fi Shadow) - also not that funny.

But I think I love the hero of 'Journey by Moonlight' even more. He passes the night where he touches suicide, which comes at him out of nowhere really, though his path towards it is utterly convincing. He emerges from this night with no further meaning or enlightment, but he is alive, and there's no more than that. He continues on his journey. And that's it, that's life. No false epiphanies, no solutions. Beware of solutions! - as Szerb's death testifies.

This is the kind of soft but hard-earned wisdom I'd like for Mal, because I do love him so.

Can I paste your ideas here? They're great and we can chew them over properly.

Becky Mears wrote:

wytchcroft wrote:Becky, i want to hear more on this; how and where you will nudging our captain. i wanna compare notes on that...

I can't help it, I have to refer to Tolstoy and Antal Szerb AGAIN.

i have been missing them; somehow i felt they had to come around again. i am now officially relieved.

Pierre's failure to find ultimate meaning and enlightenment, and the fact that he is sort of all right with it at the end, because he has to be - because we all have to be

This.
Pretty sure Book was - and that it's the lesson he hoped Mal would learn. I don't think our Captain is quite there yet but he's inching along by increments.

But I think I love the hero of 'Journey by Moonlight' even more. He passes the night where he touches suicide, which comes at him out of nowhere really,

like reavers when they were still functioning metaphors.

He emerges from this night with no further meaning or enlightment, but he is alive, and there's no more than that. He continues on his journey. And that's it, that's life. No false epiphanies, no solutions. Beware of solutions! - as Szerb's death testifies.

This is the kind of soft but hard-earned wisdom I'd like for Mal, because I do love him so.

Beautifully put Becky, won't catch no argument from me on that score - and i honestly think he'll get there if he lives long enough - the ends of OiS and the BDM are touching that truth well enough. The boy does slip though - never an easy passage; keeps him interesting, keeps me worried for him too.

Can I paste your ideas here? They're great and we can chew them over properly.

if you think that's the best way to open up a dialogue, sure - i'm not precious about that stuff; just not sure it'll make much sense to anyone, and i'd hate folk to feel excluded.
But i'm in - this is a conversation i'm ready and waiting on

"Your God lives in such tiny houses." River Tam

Mal:

after struggling with the complex emotional aftermath of the BDM and
his role in those events, Mal is seen to adapt to a new more actively
resistant life. He decides Serenity will use Mr Universe’s moon as a
base and re-names the place Independence. He still sleeps in Serenity
of course. During his experiences in the strange ‘storm’ zone near
Seleni we see his dream-life and the complexities therein in regards
to the crew (and especially Inara), Atherton Wing, Tracey – and
himself.

He seems to be undergoing a few subtle changes as time goes on, e.g.
going alone to revisit Haven and the man he shot there, allowing the
new Shepherd to build a ‘chapel’ in Serenity. No evidence yet that he
uses it any but he is less confrontational with the new Shepherd than
previously with Book.

Recently however, mixing with Saffron turned out to be a more
emotional experience than he had predicted.
......................

Shepherd Solomon Face:

younger than Book and apparently onboard at the direct behest of ‘the
Abbey’. Face is seen to enjoy action and he doesn’t suffer fools
gladly. Somewhat shiny at first he is finding that experiencing life
with the crew carries a price. He has settled in – even as far as
sparring sessions with Zoe and River and converting part of the ship
into a chapel of sorts. He loves to cook. He is a little more
‘hellfire’ than Book.

We know very little of his past – but I’ll state here and now that he
is definitely NOT an Operative.

wytchcroft wrote:

Becky Mears wrote:

I can't help it, I have to refer to Tolstoy and Antal Szerb AGAIN.

i have been missing them; somehow i felt they had to come around again. i am now officially relieved.

They're always there.

wytchcroft wrote:

But I think I love the hero of 'Journey by Moonlight' even more. He passes the night where he touches suicide, which comes at him out of nowhere really,

like reavers when they were still functioning metaphors.

We must discuss this. Yes to the metaphors, not sure to the suicide metaphor. Some people may experience suicide as a Reaver attack. Not sure though. A Reaver attack is an onslaught, a savaging. Suicide - creeps?

He emerges from this night with no further meaning or enlightment, but he is alive, and there's no more than that. He continues on his journey. And that's it, that's life. No false epiphanies, no solutions. Beware of solutions! - as Szerb's death testifies.

This is the kind of soft but hard-earned wisdom I'd like for Mal, because I do love him so.

wytchcroft wrote:Beautifully put Becky, won't catch no argument from me on that score - and i honestly think he'll get there if he lives long enough - the ends of OiS and the BDM are touching that truth well enough. The boy does slip though - never an easy passage; keeps him interesting, keeps me worried for him too.

Thanks mate! If he lives long enough. This is so important. You have him stepping up to a more active resistence in your arc, and that's where he's headed in mine too. Until that, he is in a half-life, not resisting, not surrendering, a prisoner to himself. But I want to show that once he's tried Book's path he will realise that he does want to re-join the fight on his own terms which are, after all, action-oriented. And he will embrace this, having rediscovered the value of things that he couldn't come to terms with - failed leadership first among them. Ultimately, Mal will be at the spearhead of re-claiming Miranda and the planets around it, for people who want to live outside the Alliance, as the settlers do, but his project will be on a Mal-type scale. He doesn't do things small...

God knows how this is going to turn out, with all the quotes.

Looking at your ideas - you must write this! Does this come directly after them creeping around Mr Universe's moon? Or was that a separate story?

Becky Mears wrote:Looking at your ideas - you must write this! Does this come directly after them creeping around Mr Universe's moon? Or was that a separate story?

the moon comes first pretty much.

Becky Mears wrote:

wytchcroft wrote:

But I think I love the hero of 'Journey by Moonlight' even more. He passes the night where he touches suicide, which comes at him out of nowhere really,

like reavers when they were still functioning metaphors.

We must discuss this. Yes to the metaphors, not sure to the suicide metaphor

i am preparing a more in-depth response but two by two and slightly sideways (Did you know that schizophrenic language patterns are known as 'Knight's Move Logic? interesting huh? that's by-the-by though maybe Simon and Paul Ballard should have read up some, LOL!) :

1) If you consider the death of the Self in terms other than basically physical then that darkness is very close to Mal, in fact it's what he needs his boat and crew for. One of the great things about firefly is how the interactions between (and sub-plots concerning) the crew can mirror the essential dilemma/crisis of Mal's journey; this is is one reason why the post-BDM set-up is so potentially rich and intriguing.

2) Mal LEAD A REAVER ASSAULT in the BDM - what does that do for a guy's rep? Might not actually make him so popular...
see also; the Op's scouring of Mal's friends and associates.

If he lives long enough. This is so important. You have him stepping up to a more active resistence in your arc, and that's where he's headed in mine too. Until that, he is in a half-life, not resisting, not surrendering, a prisoner to himself. But I want to show that once he's tried Book's path he will realise that he does want to re-join the fight on his own terms which are, after all, action-oriented. And he will embrace this, having rediscovered the value of things that he couldn't come to terms with - failed leadership first among them. Ultimately, Mal will be at the spearhead of re-claiming Miranda and the planets around it, for people who want to live outside the Alliance, as the settlers do, but his project will be on a Mal-type scale. He doesn't do things small...

I can buy this in theory. It's mostly a question of timescale probably. I know there was some fierce debate back on FFFN about whether Mal would become a more direct sort of leading figure or not - would he go after Blue Sun and/or the Academies etc. In the arc my fics attempt to sketch out, the more Mal is true to himself, the more damage he does - but the irony is, the more true to himself (and the practicalities of living) the more what he does is basically crime. shiny crime. The shadow to this being Simon who attempts a more intellectual, idealogical 'crusade' against the system and sees Serenity as potential weapon in that and Mr Universe's Info channels as a great source for info etc. His desire is to right the wrongs of the Academies specifically. But this is bad faith, since it is founded on guilt and rage and the complexity of feeling that River provokes. Simon will need to come to terms with that. Meantime it makes him open to manipulation by canny corporate rivals of Blue Sun and the Parliament. As, perhaps, Gabriel Tam was too.

Mal can slip and slide as i mentioned before and i try to leave it open as to which way his reactions and behaviour are pointing. e.g. This is where he is at the opening of Independently Blue, chronologically as far as as i've taken my 'season' of fics.

...

"Well, well," said the man - and didn't they always? "Malcolm Reynolds... I guess some things never change."

The two men regarded each other for a dangerous moment. The grizzled figure of former Independent Lt Gen Hammond and his one time comrade in arms Malcolm Reynolds. Serenity's captain gave a half smile. It stayed that way, looking a mite sickly as the muzzle of a nasty looking pistol moved up and on towards his eyes.

"Except sometimes they do," Mal said, using the whole of his mouth this time. Hammond had gone over to the Alliance not long before the end of the war, but that wasn't the issue, not wholly anyways.

"You know," he continued with a deliberate carefree tone, "time was, come Unification Day, folk could have a clean ruckus without the need of firearms."

"It's a whole new 'Verse Reynolds - you should know, you made it."

Mal gave a disparaging sigh. "I keep not noticing. I'm simple," with a deft flick of the wrist he snatched the pistol from the man's hand and reversed it, "like that."

And yet fast as he was the other man had whipped a spare piece from behind his back.
At least our guns see eye to eye, thought Mal. "Remind me here, dance like this, who leads, who follows and should I curtsy?"

...

Sometimes the most active resistance is setting down roots; maybe Inara will be the answer after all???

Ok, now back to Mal and matters of the spirit, matters of faith: I did try to address this somewhat (bear in mind i'm catching up with my rusty memory here in general) and i'm looking forward to the dialogue here.


"I'm thinking there'll likely be ectoplasm." Mal Reynolds.

This discussion is tantalizing. Where are these fics to which you refer? They sound very interesting! (*wants to read*)

ebfiddler987 wrote:Where are these fics to which you refer?

Yes Wytch, where ARE these fics?

No pressure.

Is the ambiguous Simon blog post still on FFF?

And that's it, that's life. No false epiphanies, no solutions. Beware of solutions!

Hmm. I almost wonder if this is the direction I should go with for my story. I did originally have some realizations, but maybe it would actually be better if I hinted at the message I have in mind, and the characters actually ignore the epiphanies.

But I think I love the hero of 'Journey by Moonlight' even more. He passes the night where he touches suicide, which comes at him out of nowhere really,

like reavers when they were still functioning metaphors.

We must discuss this. Yes to the metaphors, not sure to the suicide metaphor. Some people may experience suicide as a Reaver attack. Not sure though. A Reaver attack is an onslaught, a savaging. Suicide - creeps?

Self loathing and the dark voice within. Both feel ravaging at times. Suicide under those circumstances would seem very like a reaver attack. An analogy/parallel to the passing of night fits with a near miss with suicide.

2) Mal LEAD A REAVER ASSAULT in the BDM - what does that do for a guy's rep? Might not actually make him so popular...
see also; the Op's scouring of Mal's friends and associates.

Yeah. Though to be fair that was equal parts revenge and self-defense.

Plus the Operative probably covered up the whole thing. Some of the Alliance military underlings might still be out for revenge, but nothing that could probably be stated officially or given official reasons.

And yeah, he'll have to deal with the loss of his contacts, and increased distrust from the criminal element he relies on to hire him. But he might be able to deal with that by pushing out and establishing new contacts.

Bytemite wrote:
And yeah, he'll have to deal with the loss of his contacts, and increased distrust from the criminal element he relies on to hire him. But he might be able to deal with that by pushing out and establishing new contacts.

might is right. LOL
no, but of course, i agree - there will be new and exciting opportunities for crime and such.

what you said about Reavers - i agree with also. though i think (as metaphors) Reavers can be used in varied ways, to me the suicide analogy does fit.

Meantime - the plot Bunny with Serenity and the relics is definitely twitching at me...

Becky Mears wrote:

ebfiddler987 wrote:Where are these fics to which you refer?

Yes Wytch, where ARE these fics?

No pressure.

Is the ambiguous Simon blog post still on FFF?

i don't know what is still in the vaults to be honest. i haven't looked - couldn't face it. but i'll trawl through what i have stashed away elsewhere. IF people want to search FFN they can - but what's there is probably damaged beyond repair - also the earlier the fic the more it blows.
i might fix up 'Spiritual' since it is the one i see as having similar concerns to yours and is a distance (timewise) from the BDM. And River gets some stuff to do. Meantime and more importantly and again; serenity + relics = plot bunny. i see it and i know it wants a home...

Well, and unfortunately past a certain period of time the Fireflyfans search function is very broken itself.

Fanfiction dot net, though, huh? I'll give that a try.

wytchcroft wrote:IF people want to search FFN they can

The easiest way to search for things you posted may be if you leave some feedback - if you dare. Byte, EB and I have posted recently - leave some feedback, if you remember your login, then we can link from your username to a list of what you've posted in the past.

Byte's right, the search function is rubbish on the new site.

wytchcroft wrote:Did you know that schizophrenic language patterns are known as 'Knight's Move Logic?

I didn't. Don't think I've ever had an actual conversation with someone in that state.

wytchcroft wrote:the death of the Self

Mal has experienced a kind of death of the self, or a sort of yearning/pull towards it. But was it a suicidal death? I don't think so. It was something that happened to him, not something that he instigated. The amazing thing is that he wants to keep living, even though he lacks the inner resources to make that continued-living anything more than a torment.

I'm still questioning the suicide/Reaver metaphor, and I agree that obviously you can see them as an aspect of the self that attacks the self in a particularly gruesome and final way. But remember what Zoe said: they rape you and then eat you. Is that what suicidal thoughts leading to suicide do? I would compare what the Reavers do more with self-hatred.

wytchcroft wrote:the more Mal is true to himself, the more damage he does

Please elaborate on 'Why?'!

wytchcroft wrote:the more true to himself (and the practicalities of living) the more what he does is basically crime.

Again, please elaborate! Please forgive me if I'm completely misunderstanding you, but do you see Mal as an inherent criminal? If he is to continue living, he has to develop the inner resources that will make it more than a torment. I agree with Byte, that he was actually pinning a lot of his hopes on Inara, as someone he felt good to be around but who had also somehow done a lot of the inner work on herself that he needs to do. But in my series at least he's away from her and has to do it on his own.

wytchcroft wrote:The shadow to this being Simon who attempts a more intellectual, idealogical 'crusade' against the system and sees Serenity as potential weapon in that and Mr Universe's Info channels as a great source for info etc. His desire is to right the wrongs of the Academies specifically. But this is bad faith, since it is founded on guilt and rage and the complexity of feeling that River provokes.

I can completely buy that.

wytchcroft wrote:

"Well, well," said the man - and didn't they always? "Malcolm Reynolds... I guess some things never change."

The two men regarded each other for a dangerous moment. The grizzled figure of former Independent Lt Gen Hammond and his one time comrade in arms Malcolm Reynolds. Serenity's captain gave a half smile. It stayed that way, looking a mite sickly as the muzzle of a nasty looking pistol moved up and on towards his eyes.

"Except sometimes they do," Mal said, using the whole of his mouth this time. Hammond had gone over to the Alliance not long before the end of the war, but that wasn't the issue, not wholly anyways.

"You know," he continued with a deliberate carefree tone, "time was, come Unification Day, folk could have a clean ruckus without the need of firearms."

"It's a whole new 'Verse Reynolds - you should know, you made it."

Mal gave a disparaging sigh. "I keep not noticing. I'm simple," with a deft flick of the wrist he snatched the pistol from the man's hand and reversed it, "like that."

And yet fast as he was the other man had whipped a spare piece from behind his back.
At least our guns see eye to eye, thought Mal. "Remind me here, dance like this, who leads, who follows and should I curtsy?"

God that last bit of Malism is brilliant! Charlie's right, you've got the flow and the language to a Tee.

Becky Mears wrote:

wytchcroft wrote:The shadow to this being Simon who attempts a more intellectual, idealogical 'crusade' against the system and sees Serenity as potential weapon in that and Mr Universe's Info channels as a great source for info etc. His desire is to right the wrongs of the Academies specifically. But this is bad faith, since it is founded on guilt and rage and the complexity of feeling that River provokes.

I can completely buy that.

and i'm interested to hear more from charlie on this.

Charlie wrote:In my post BDM verse, Simon eventually returns to the core but in the capacity of a spy or freedom fighter or whatever you want to call a radical who works to change the system. I think there's all kinds of anger to be found in Dr. Tam. Not only on behalf of his sister but what person, doctor especially, wouldn't be horrified about what happened at Miranda. I never envisioned a fluffy outcome where he and Kaylee happily live on Serenity for the rest of their lives having lots of fat babies.

Becky Mears wrote:

wytchcroft wrote:the more Mal is true to himself, the more damage he does

Please elaborate on 'Why?'!

wytchcroft wrote:the more true to himself (and the practicalities of living) the more what he does is basically crime.

Again, please elaborate!

What i was (incoherently) talking about is that the more Mal relaxes back into his old life - but with a new sensibility and sense of purpose, the more damage he winds up actually doing to 'the system' (albeit with the reader being aware that the various corporations can do as much to one another with the flick of a credit index - and that firefly is not a black and white us versus them universe.) things just fall into place for him and/or the crew serendipitously; in much the same way as; "I never plan for foreshadowing or symbolism or anything. But if you keep the basic integrity of characters/self (you can't separate them), then things tend to come together. "

Saying that - my stuff always got a roasting for being so dark, which i never understood but maybe the characters all seem to be lost still, incl Mal. i'd have to re-read them to know - and no thanks. Is Mal inherently a criminal? no - he has smarts and haplessness in equal measure that would come out no matter the context - but crime is just what keeps mouths fed and ships fuelled; though it is, on occasion, hi-larious. The day may indeed come when he settles - but not today.
IF Serenity is just a millstone trapping him in the bloody amber of that valley then ultimately the ship will have to go. But i have not got to that point in my scribblings yet.

here's a handily pre-separated example of typical mal/simon mission banter post bdm (and some) from The Xmas Run (aka trailer parks in space).
note: Simon wears his glasses more often now.
.............................................................................

Still it was a wing and a prayer when you looked at it – and Reynolds had needed persuading, which was… and back to the skills of argument. Not that he hadn’t tried to steer a course around that. He’d been perfectly equitable point of fact…

“And I’m supposed to what? Go all intervention here? Polish up my hero badge? People got to find a way to live in the verse – survival makes criminals of the best of us Doctor.”

Simon, however, was not letting it go so easily. “Why do you sound like you’re trying to convince yourself, Captain?”

“Because I AM Gorramit!” Reynolds exploded. “I don’t like it, we’ve been bouncing from job to job… Now it’s what? – Good deed to good deed? My coat is brown Doc’, there’s no shining armour here.” He turned his back even as his fists clenched – but the Doctor was remorseless...
“-’We sent a wave, so we’ll send another – and another’ – your words Captain. I think you meant them.”

Mal turned at the words. To Simon’s surprise the Captain flashed him a smile. “Y’know I preferred getting my tips from Badger – Job’s all went South… but at least I had the pleasure of beating up on him some.”

Simon’s returning smile was a little nervy now. “Well, you have hit me before.”

The Captain snorted. “Seem to recall how we’re even on that score.”

Simon put his hands into pockets and there was a pause before he said slowly, “And I don’t know about you Captain, but I feel… older than that now. I’m guessing…” he raised a hopeful eye, “that you do too.”

“Hell, no – I just can’t hit a man wearing glasses is all.”

Jayne coughed.

“Well, “ Mal conceded, “that one time… but the man had it coming…”

This, Simon decided, was as close to outright agreement as he was going to get from the Captain. He nodded politely and exited the room, trying not to run.

Mal looked at the departing figure – but his words were addressed to Jayne.
“Hell, when did he get so go tsao de smart?”

“I can hit him if you want.” Jayne replied helpfully.

……………………………………