Dr. Simon Tam. Noble as grape.

Continuing the Simon discussion started in a fic ideas thread.

Copied from other thread:

In my [charlie] post BDM verse, Simon eventually returns to the core but in the capacity of a spy or freedom fighter or whatever you want to call a radical who works to change the system. I think there's all kinds of anger to be found in Dr. Tam. Not only on behalf of his sister but what person, doctor especially, wouldn't be horrified about what happened at Miranda. I never envisioned a fluffy outcome where he and Kaylee happily live on Serenity for the rest of their lives having lots of fat babies.

i sense a lot of guilt in that boy. it never did me any favours over at (some other site) but i still believe Simon at least worries that he played a part in encouraging River to go the Academy.

of course he has the love.

but... THAT WON'T SAVE HIM!

seriously though, i do think he wants to be the white knight for River and so post-BDM that urge would lead him places now that River is free to grow up.

>_> The term "White Knight" carries some interesting connotations. Do you mean River wasn't far off in reading Simon when she asked Book to marry them?

Simon probably does need something more fulfilling than treating criminals on Serenity, and his worldview is very different from Kaylee's. They are a difficult match to reconcile or see together long term. It's not impossible, but they wouldn't have much common ground.

Simon would go insane if his life was spent on Serenity waiting around for people to get shot/stabbed/etc.

Who would wish such a fate on that fine man? I love Simon but I could see him having an arc much like Wesley in Angel.

Charlie wrote:Simon would go insane if his life was spent on Serenity waiting around for people to get shot/stabbed/etc.

Who would wish such a fate on that fine man? I love Simon but I could see him having an arc much like Wesley in Angel.

I admit, I didn't see Angel through to the end - it was always on so late here (11, 11.30) so I gave up on it. What happened to Wesley?

Wesley thought he was doing a good thing but was being manipulated and ended up totally betraying Angel et al in the worst possible way. He thought he was saving Angel's son (or something like that) but instead gave the son to Angel's bitter enemy who took Connor (the son) to a hell dimension. It was awful! You just felt terrible for Wes. His character was never the same. Actually, the whole thing was rather awesome!

Hmm. You mean Simon becomes slowly more alienated from the crew, and then decides to take River somewhere that seems safer, but it ends up that he accidentally gives her back to the people who broke her in the first place?

Byte - that sounds like something you should write

Charlie, you, uh, skipped over Wesley getting almost killed, then Angel (best friend) having a go at finishing the job before Wes becomes a complete bad-ass whilst also making fun but questionable bed partner choices. phew!
oh and he talks to hamburger stands - and they answer him!

Becky - i love Angel, but i suspect it would appeal and appal in equal measure.

Bytemite wrote:Hmm. You mean Simon becomes slowly more alienated from the crew, and then decides to take River somewhere that seems safer, but it ends up that he accidentally gives her back to the people who broke her in the first place?

No, more like doing something he believes is a good thing but winding up doing something terrible that has long-term consequences ad cannot be forgiven.

I don't think Simon's going to be happy in the long term as a general-practitioner for 6 patients. It's very convenient for Mal and Zoe (and Jayne) to have a genius doctor aboard who can fix them up when they get stabbed or shot, but it's not very satisfying for the doctor. They provided a bit of a mission for Simon in "fixing" River post-Academy, but depending on whether or not you believe River is "fixed" after Miranda, Simon may or may not need to do much in that regard after the BDM. If River's mental health is restored, what does Simon have to do on Serenity? Very little indeed. He either has to find something else that's worthy of his intellectual efforts, or he'll want to leave the boat.

Yes. Actually, I've thought the best bet Simon and Kaylee have is probably if they leave the boat, and Simon starts a traveling clinic while Kaylee starts the mechanics shop she's always wanted, and Simon visits sometimes. But at the same time, in that circumstance Kaylee has needs, I'm not sure she wouldn't just find a new boy toy in the interim.

Maybe Simon would end up on Haven. Seems more plausible to me now than it used to.

I'd actually like to see a number of the crew end up on Haven, to be near Wash and Book's grave. Particularly Zoe and the new baby, Simon could help with the delivery?

Bytemite wrote:I'd actually like to see a number of the crew end up on Haven, to be near Wash and Book's grave. Particularly Zoe and the new baby, Simon could help with the delivery?

Hell yes! Though i'm pretty sure the babe will get born on the boat. Just keep River out the way. Heart of Gold is a lesson on that score!

I agree with you Charlie, I think it's just a matter of time until Simon does something unforgivable. He's thrown his lot in with Mal in order to protect his sister, but Mal - Joss is very plain about it - is the smallest of small time. Picking over wreckage, scrambling to find a buyer for what he finds. His ship is falling apart. After the BDM the people he usually does business with are dead. It can't escape Simon that Mal isn't the best bet for insulating River from danger, and if the stakes got really, really high, who wouldn't he make a deal with? And Simon is, for drama, an ideal adversary - he's brilliant, he's driven, he's heartbroken, he has very little to lose.

Of course, there are lots of Whedonverse characters who do unforgivable things. Angel, Faith and Wesley are the first that come to mind. But Giles tells Buffy that we don't forgive people because they deserve it, we forgive them because they need it.

gilliebeans wrote:
... But Giles tells Buffy that we don't forgive people because they deserve it, we forgive them because they need it.

Well, that's pretty wonderful right there. Giles was awesome.

Regarding Haven...I hope no one else ends up in that horribly dry and rocky desolate place. I'd like them to end up somewhere prettier.

Ooh. That's a good idea. We know that Simon has no real loyalty to the crew even if he does have a vague interest in Kaylee, and his awkward proposition in the movie almost seems to me more about he likes her and wanted to cheer her up/ say something nice before the end more than any real deep connection or commitment.

We certainly know that Simon is much more loyal to River than everyone else. And we also might be able to say the same thing about River towards Simon, regard for everyone except Jayne aside.

Charlie wrote:

gilliebeans wrote:
... But Giles tells Buffy that we don't forgive people because they deserve it, we forgive them because they need it.

Well, that's pretty wonderful right there. Giles was awesome.

Regarding Haven...I hope no one else ends up in that horribly dry and rocky desolate place. I'd like them to end up somewhere prettier.

Hey! I live in Utah, I'll remind you.

Sometimes empty is really pretty. Your thoughts go on forever.

I live in New Mexico. Drier and emptier and browner than Utah!

Ah. *confused* Then, you should understand. *scolding*

nicely put gillie.

frak - i'm out of posting synch again. i have time issues.

Can you imagine how awkward it'll be when Simon's relationship with Kaylee falls through? Simon probably wants his life to be more meaningful, but I get the impression so long as he has some acceptance on Serenity he'll stay there because he doesn't know anywhere else he can go.

It's like in the movie, what makes Simon leave then is Mal's constant antagonism after Inara leaves (and endangering River, but you can't tell me that there isn't an ongoing lack of respect that Simon's dealing with that comes to a head there). Once Kaylee isn't on his side anymore, the rest of the crew will put him on the outs too. And while River gets along with most everyone, Simon would insist she go with him and she'd agree.

Bytemite wrote:Can you imagine how awkward it'll be when Simon's relationship with Kaylee falls through?

LOL! Awkward is where Simon lives.

Once Kaylee isn't on his side anymore, the rest of the crew will put him on the outs too.

i think the crew are more practical minded than that.

gilliebeans wrote:I agree with you Charlie, I think it's just a matter of time until Simon does something unforgivable.

screwthealliance, anyone? I know Rouka hated that series, so some other Inara fans might too, but I did follow it because I was so interested to see where Simon's betrayal would go.

? I don't remember that plotline from screwthealliance. Although I do remember he had some seriously questionable ideas about companions and soldiers and gender roles that kind of bordered on offensive, but his Inara wasn't a focus so I kind of overlooked that.

I was also bothered occasionally by how crude Mal would be in screwthealliance's stories just to get a rise out of Inara - Mal is offensive and irritating, and I've sometimes liked to write him as just a little bit of a rake towards Inara just to get the whole Byronic angle. But he's not really crude, and screwthealliance was getting into Jayne-levels of crude.

Although screwthealliance's plots were fun and interesting enough that the occasional characterization issues weren't a huge deal.